dougbelshaw.com/blog

Doug,
The "edublogosphere" is hardly an exclusive club. Nobody else has had to prove their worth, other than by their contributions. If arthus is contributing, why deny him any of the benefits (such as they are) of being in this community.

In educational theory, the experience of talking inside the community is well estalished as being the primary learning method for newcomers. Listenting to the conversation and learning from veterans, and practicing skills in the community is the way people learn, whether they are 14 or 40. The concept of "legitimate peripheral participation", of joining in conversation is the essence of learning. It's not unhealthy to encourage newcomers to flex their conversational muscles, and to listen to them -- even when they make mistakes. Trying and stretching and figuring out what works in a community is how people learn. it has nothing to do with age. Even people who are "experts" in the community make mistakes and learn what the limits of the community are.

Should we demand that anyone who wants to join the conversation have to pass a test first? Should that test be simply age? How are people supposed to learn if we segregate them and deny them the very participation that will increase their expertise and competance?

The younger generation has a lot to learn, and a lot to teach too. it might not be as comfortable as everyone sitting neatly in rows and minding their manners, but maybe we'll all learn something in the mix.

The Bolsheviks abolished the dividing line between students and teachers. If you don't know what the result of that was, perhaps it's worth looking up.

Whilst I'm all for giving students a voice, but not for treating teenagers in the same way as adults. That doesn't mean I want them to 'sit in rows minding their manners'. This isn't a black and white issue and it's certainly not me vs. Arthus. It's about appropriate responses and participation.

Bolsheviks = Twitterverse? C'mon, that's so silly it doesn't pass the giggle test.

I don't think you understand the context.

That's your response for everything, isn't it–that someone else doesn't understand.

For everything? I don't think so. The fact that she doesn't get the analogy means that she doesn't understand the context...

Totally amazed that a bunch of "mature" adults have spent so long in a pseudo intellectual debate with a 14 year old. I agree, with you on points 1 and 2. Not really sure what he thinks he will prove by setting up as a "fake" teacher somewhere on the blogosphere - that he can produce as much intellectual waffle as many other edubloggers seem to manage?

The point is to prove that his allegations of me somehow being an inferior writer, thinker, or blogger are based purely upon my perceived age.

Even as the exact same writer, without knowing my age, Doug would not criticize me and say I should be barred from the blogosphere.

Either:

a) You have a unique point of view as a student to contribute to the edublogosphere.

Or:

b) You are just trotting out the same old stuff as everyone else.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways: if it's a) then writing an anonymous blog or with a completely made-up persona is pointless, and if it's b) then there's no reason for you to contribute.

At no point have I said you should be 'barred from the blogosphere'. Please don't twist my words.

Indeed.

Hi Doug,
I haven't engaged in much conversation with Arthus, not because i don't want to, just because our paths haven't really crossed and we haven't established a connection. I do however, converse quite frequently with another student blogger, one who has taught me much about this online world and who has assisted me with projects that have connected my students to the wider world. I value the connection I have formed with this student blogger -she has taught me much and I, in turn, have been there for her when she has needed me. To me, it's an extension of the teaching relationships I share with the students I teach in real life. She has reached out to me when she has needed help and I have been able to assist her. This has been one of the most powerful experiences I have had since joining this network -feeling that i was able to help a student in need despite the miles separating us.
Please be mindful of the effect a post like this could have on Arthus. He seems hurt by the nature of what has transpired over the last couple of days. We as teachers need to be mindful of the age of these students. Think back to when you were 14 - I know that I would have found it very difficult to shoulder the criticism. Heck, I think I'd find it hard even now.
Jenny Luca.

But surely 'the effect this has on Arthus' - if a negative one backs up my point about experience and emotional maturity?

Have you seen this story - might be the exception ;-)
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asi...

Otherwise - I'm not scared of hearing what a 14 year old has to say and would encourage them to say it - one of the best presenters at the last teachmeet was a 14 year old who explained to us how students got round school security. But while I may read and comment on students' blogs related to professional issues there is certainly a line I would draw on my interaction. This line is to keep a professional distance, to protect my privacy and to keep both parties out of trouble

First, a little context:
<ul>
<li>Doug has a long history of considered me a smart-ass, loner kid...who doesn't make many friends.<li>
<li>Doug has held the belief that I am somehow being manipulated and idolized without my knowledge.</li>
<li>This post was precipitated by a post Darren Draper wrote upon a Twitter exchange.</li>
<li>Doug apparently still thinks of me as a little boy stumbling into a world he wants to keep me out of.</li>
<li>I apologized appropriately for my rudeness on Twitter.</li>
</ul>

I am loathe to descend to your level, Doug (since it is such a low level), but I fear I must–if only to make sure your readers get the full story. That being said, I do not wish to participate in your troll tactics. If you want to give me a reasoned, rational response free of blatant ageism, I will be happy to read it. Otherwise, please keep it to yourself.

I’d love to hear some proper justifications of why I should that aren’t platitudes or crowd-pleasing posturing… ;-)

I'd love to think that you, as someone who has at least some degree of intelligence, could write something which transcends that. This very post runs amok with platitudes, and the only reason for publishing it that I can see is to engage in crowd-pleasing posturing.

Since when did Twitter become your domain? This is not a symposium where you can just shut the doors. The internet is a free place, and if many intelligent teachers chose to read what I write, that is their prerogative—you can't dictate what the rest of the world should read.

They haven’t had much life experience. In the same way that you wouldn’t appoint a newly-qualified teacher to run a school, teenagers haven’t got the experience to make fully informed comments on education. They only see one side of the picture.

Your example proves my exact point. Am I teaching or running a classroom? No, I am just giving ideas and suggestions. As for seeing only one side of the picture, the same could be said of you far more than of me.

The transparency that we almost demand in the edublogosphere - even the simple ‘what’s your name and where do you come from’ - cannot be provided by these youngsters due to child protection issues. The edublogosphere therefore just becomes another anonymous forum to them.

First of all, your degrading monikers only prove your own immaturity in the face of perceived threats. Where do I live? Hinesburg, VT. The only reason I don't share my real name isn't because of ridiculous "child protection" issues—I just don't want outright slander like this showing up should someone Google me. Furthermore, how do we even know that you are Doug Belshaw? What keeps you from adopting a fake pseudonym to use when slandering others and I?

They tend to be ships without a rudder, speeding off in one direction and then another. Yes, they need interactions with more mature people to give them this ‘rudder’, but I would argue that they learn by imitation. The best place for this is offline - especially given point 2!<?blockquote>
You offer absolutely no justification for this absurd statement. What was I blogging about last time you chose to display your outright ageism? Education. What am I blogging about now? Education. In the last 10 posts on your blog, far more of them are random spins into strange lanes than any of mine. If the best you can do is make accusations and comments with no proof to back it up, then I can see why you attack 14-year-olds, since they are usually easier targets.

It’s not up to me who you follow on Twitter or whose blogs you read, but I see teenagers as having the same role in the edublogosphere as student councils do in schools. That is informing professionals.

Here is where your argument breaks down atrociously. What am I doing if I am not informing professionals? Hopefully, must teachers are professionals. And I'm certainly not in a classroom teaching.

On a final note about maturity, I would like you to do a search through my blog and find how many smilies I use. Also, find how well I cite my sources. Oh, and maybe take a look at the images I use (they're all Creative Commons license). Who has more Myspace-esque widgets in their sidebar? I don't think these things matter, but if we're going to go into an argument about maturity and sense than I suggest you take a look in the mirror. Do you see a professional?

By the way, I'm 15: at least bother to check your facts, or didn't they teach you that in your years of schooling?

I'll respond to this with a video comment (something, note, that you can't do because of your anonymous standing) after the guests currently at my house have left.

Seesmic video reply from Disqus.

It doesn't seem to be showing up...

I am seeing it right now.... don't continue to support rediculous claims with outright fallacies.

So you've shown yourself onllne, say on your About page where you go to school - so why not the real name? Then people like me might start to take you a bit more seriously.

The argument you put forward before about negative things resulting as a result of being googled shows a lack of transparency and honesty to me...

But, yet again, this is about the wider issue - not just about you. I'm not sure you quite get that yet. :-)

Hello, Doug,

Given that this post contains Arthus' (online) name in the title, the url, and the opening paragraph, it certainly feels as if it is about Arthus, at least a little.

Also, after having read this thread, and the other threads (and I'll admit it's been painful, and that I regret not making more productive use of the time) I'm not seeing where your actual point merits this much energy.

I'd advocate that everybody take the weekend off (heck, celebrate a little -- don't come back to this 'til Tuesday). Then, let's re-read the threads, watch all the videos, and let's see how well the logic in these arguments has aged.

Cheers,

Bill