So you don’t condemn the rioters?
by Doug Belshaw • August 10, 2011 • FAQ • 25 Comments
Whilst I would absolutely condemn the violence and criminality that we’ve seen over the last few nights in major English cities, I can’t help but think that we’re narrow-mindedly only accepting one side of a much larger, more complex (and more disturbing) picture.
Put yourself in the place of a teenager in modern-day England. Even if you keep your side of the bargain – if you keep your head down, work hard and keep out of trouble – you still have to pay what must seem like an egregious amount of money to get a degree, something that is fast becoming a minimum entry level qualification for many jobs. How would you feel then?
But what about if it’s worse than that? What about if you’ve grown up in an environment where you’ve been neglected (or worse still, abused), where it’s up to you if you decide to go to school, where there’s no money in the house for what others class as basics? What if the structure that used to be provided by families, schools and communities just doesn’t exist for you? What if there literally are no boundaries? Is that your fault?
As we saw with the student fees protests, you can be well-educated, articulate, and peaceful in your demonstrations and *still* be completely ignored by the government. What chance have young, poorly-educated and marginalised people really got, then? What use is marching with a placard going to do? Can you honestly say that in those circumstances you wouldn’t turn to gangs and people who, on a short-term and very local level *can* sort out your problems for you? I’m not sure I could be so certain.
So whilst I obviously don’t condone violence and criminal damage, I have to wonder just how our young people are supposed to vent their dissatisfaction with the current state of affairs. As I mentioned yesterday I believe that the structural inequality in England is larger than at any time during my 30 years living in the country:
As Richard Wilkinson points out in his book The Spirit Level the overwhelming cause of male homicide is status inequality. In fact, the power of the effect is three times greater than the strongest correlation previously measured. Status inequality affects seratonin levels which, in turn, lessens an individual’s ability to enjoy pleasure and amplifies negative emotions. As a result, cortisol levels are likely to increase which are linked to almost everything bad that can happen to you health-wise: depression, cancer, heart disease, you name it.
So let’s catch the young people carrying out criminal damage. But rather than punish them in unjust ways, let’s be measured in our response. And for goodness’ sake, let’s get their side of the story. Perhaps then we can do something about working towards a more just society.
Thanks for writing some common sense Doug, I totally agree (just as a teacher of young people should) that we need to find a way of engagiing with this lost generation. The most appalling thing that the coalition govt did was to attack young people through the loss of EMA, student fees, stopping BSF, undercutting Sure Start the list goes on. It seems that we have lost part of the social contract which helps bring people into our society, too many ASBOs not enough youth services. With nearly 20% Youth unemployment what purpose, what future do these people have? In Norway they called for ‘more democracy’ in the UK they call for water cannons and rubber bullets. Depressing
Good to hear from you, Dan. I’m glad you consider the government to be ‘attacking’ young people too – it’s shameful and it has to stop. Not. In. My. Name.Just because we don’t *physically* see the immediate effects of policies doesn’t mean that it’s not damaging a generation of young people.
Thank you for such a sensible take on things. I’m fed up having to clarify that “no, I don’t condone looting and rioting” before explaining that there are wider issues at play (and that we might want to look at the causes not just the symptoms etc)
A much more measured response than my vitriolic rant from yesterday. My immediate reaction tells a lot but I have given it a lot of thought and I agree with what you and many others are saying. Government policies are having negative effects on society and these may or may not be manifesting themselves through the disturbances and destruction on our streets. But it is not an excuse. Those responsible must be punished under the full extent of the law. The problem runs deep in our society and it has to be solved. Where does this start? Who will start it? For one, I have no faith in our government doing so.
Spot on Doug; well said.
+1
Hi Doug, I normally agree with most things you say, however….. I do agree education needs to play a role in giving these idiots more sense, but at the same time, I was brought up in one of the roughest, lowest socio-economic neighbourhoods in Liverpool. From school year 7-11, I attended the 18th worst school in the country. Many of the people I lived by, or those I went to school with, were never going to be ‘successful’ in our working world. They done many stupid things; they were excluded from school as a teenager; but they didn’t riot.Although I wasn’t around, I don’t recall this mayhem in turbulent times for Miners or Dock workers in Liverpool. My brother works in a really bad school – he wants to make a difference. But the majority of the kids are not interested. They don’t want to be there despite his best efforts. Still, no riots in that area….These rioters are mindless. Simple as that. You don’t need to be particularly intelligent to realise that burning a local family business, or smashing a police car up, is not the way to protest against cutting EMA and the other things mentioned here – that’s indeed, if these are the root cause. I would suggest the kids I seen on sky news who were wearing £100+ trainers, or the kid in Manchester wearing a £400 Gucci bag, are not too bothered about £30 a week!So how does education impact to prevent this happening?
Hi Pete, I’m not sure either of us is in a position, despite both going to rough schools to say ‘These rioters are mindless’. And, whilst we both may have experienced a context of deprivation, we haven’t experienced *this* context of deprivation.And as for the ‘kids wearing £100+ trainers’ there’s always the people on the fringes who take advantage of the situation. That doesn’t mean that the causes behind the situation aren’t made up of valid grievances.
This is not a specific response to EMA, raising fees etc but a sign of dislocation which is directly linked to govt policies over the last 20 years which have alienated young people. At least the Labour government invested in schools and Sure Start, the coalition has ripped that apart. You are not going to be looting Footlocker if you have to go to work the following morning. Youth unemployment is rocketing (and can be linked to the disturbances in the Arab world too), they need more investment not less. (Un)fortunately education is a long term solution, we need more schools and teachers equipped for the 21st century which do not teach students using methods and structures from the 19th century. Dan
As I responded to Nick Dennis in my previous post, Dan, as historians we know better than to think that things have one cause. The dislocation of which you speak may be a long-term cause but the short-term cause, the tinderbox, is the specific marginalising policies of the current government directed at young people.
I don’t believe those kids in expensive clothiers are on the fringes – that would be to suggest the main ‘actors’ do not have such expensive items. You only have to switch on the news to see the footage where almost all of those people are wearing the expensive hoodies, etc. But what do they hope to achieve from smashing/burning buildings? That’s not a protest, and the fact that nobody actually knows the real reason reinforces that. Surely a protest has an obvious cause, and an obvious desired outcome. We know neither.I’m not particularly in tune with all of the political issues/debates, and normally I don’t talk about religion or politics, however I don’t believe the coalition are ‘out to get the young people’ like some of the comments suggest. At the end of the day, we know Labour were spending way too much money and that has to be addressed. Now I don’t know the best way to do that, and I do disagree with cuts and rising fees, but destroying people’s livelihood is not the answer – the actions of these rioters are not justifiable/suitable/appropriate/worthwhile/outcome-focussed. There’s no observable goal or achievement in sight, other than to cause as much damage as possible.Having said that, if there is some way education can prevent this, then I’m all for it, but I’m not sure it’s as simple as that. It’s likely a social problem that’s an incalculable number of years old. The kids of my time were quite bad. The next set of kids were visibly worse. And now we see this. What will their kids be like in 20 years?I think the response of one community last night (Enfield I think) was quite admirable – a community gathering together to protect their local environment. These rioters are someone’s brother/sister/son/daughter. We have a responsibility to behave in a certain way (or to not behave in a certain way), and the further responsibility to encourage that amongst our family and peers.
I read this with interest Doug and I agree with your overall point that there are some complex issues at play here and it’s easy and understandable for us public to have knee jerk reactions such as, “call in the army”, “bring out the water cannon” etc. Even more understandable if you are the unfortunate person who’s house or business has been ruined.These are not answers though and would only escalate the situation in my opinion. Although if it continues I think some kind of curfew would be an acceptable compromise. So while all the things that have been mentioned by Dan are valid reasons, they are not excuses. Whichever way it’s packaged up there is no getting away from the fact the what is happening on the streets is wrong and against the law. There have to be consequences. I just heard a young girl in a radio interview justifying her reasons for looting because “it’s not fair that she gets nothing” and “no one gives her any work”. There is the thinking from a minority of youngsters that things should be handed to them and if not then they’ll go and get it. There are plenty of things that I would like and I’m sure that’s the same for most people, so why don’t I just walk into the Apple Store and take the lovely iPad2 that I want? It’s wrong that’s why. I have to work to earn the money to get it. A by product of this is that I’ll respect it more when I have it and so on.Life is just not handed to us on a plate, we have to work hard to achieve. Sure people need help and guidance but when it comes down to it the individual needs to have the drive to want to achieve.I have to 100% disagree with your point about what I would do in the same circumstances. I can safely say that it would never occur to me to take to the streets and destroy businesses and loot property just because I was at a low point in my life.As for the point on degrees. Yes I accept that it’s crap that it’s likely most university courses will cost £30,000 and that will put most post graduate students in debt as soon as they leave. However degrees are not the be all and end all. I don’t have a degree and I’m no worse off than most of my peers who did go to university. I accept that for some careers a degree is a requirement, but on the whole it’s not necessary.As for neglected children I 100% agree. As a responsible parent this is one area that makes me really cross. I have no doubt that some numbers of young people just are not aware that what they are doing is wrong and that’s just because their parents act in exactly the same way. I have real sympathy for these children and have seen it myself where they have to essentially look after themselves, make their own breakfast, take themselves to school etc, just because their parent could not care less. What hope is there for these children with such poor role models?So yes it’s a hugely complex situation. What’s the solution? Many things have to be done and I don’t have all the answers. There clearly has to be more engagement with young people. They also have to realise that this activity is unacceptable in a civilised society and there has to be consequences for people that do not abide by the rules. Parent, teachers, carers and the authorities have huge responsibilities too.It can be done. There was a young guy on BBC Breakfast today that had the right attitude. Used to be a bad lad but realised that wasn’t they way and has turned himself around. You know the stories. The problem with this route is that it’s not easy, it take effort but the reward is greater and I’m not talking about financial reward but more in the sense of self respect, respect from others and a sense of achievement.Sorry for going on a bit. Thanks for posting and getting me thinking.
Interesting comments – similar to many others in the media. Condemning the violence, but searching for reasons as to why they are doing it.I am English, but moved to Scotland 12 years ago and the town I moved to was then the most deprived in the UK – and is still up there with the worst – as are many other towns in Scotland. Yet we have no riots? The same goes for Wales.I could put that down to the Scottish and Welsh sitting back and enjoying the English destroy their communities and maybe it is. But the education and social ‘systems’ are not much different.This morning, I listened to two young girls making comments that nailed it for me. They claimed they were doing this to ‘show the rich, they could do what they want and to destroy the rich people businesses’. I’m betting the very same people wouldn’t turn their noses up at winning a few million on the lottery.One last thing. These criminals claim they have no future or prospects. I downloaded a list of the top 50 richest people under 30 (google it). So that argument is also blown out of the water…. Youtube, Facebook, Mozill, etc, etc. All under 30yrs of age.http://www.retireat21.com/top-young-entrepreneurs
Hi Clive, and thanks for the comment.I’m not entirely sure what point you’re making here. Certainly the fact that young rich people exist isn’t a counter-argument.As I walked around Newcastle-upon-Tyne this lunchtime I reflected on the fact that there hasn’t been any rioting up here. Perhaps that’s because of the decades of underinvestment in the region meaning that the latest setback isn’t anything new?
Doug, trying to point out that poor education and deprivation are not reasons to riot, loot and attack people. Add to this, London seems suck in the majority of funds for Government and social schemes, yet the youths from London claim they are the worts off.Youths interviewed in other cities, are at least honest and admit they are doing it ‘because they can’, or ‘for fun’, etc and not blaming everyone but themselves.The UK does not consist of London, or England (although people living in London would have us believe that). As your original post just mentions England, you might want to think why it’s just England and especially London.On a closing note, people who start such blogs are never going to agree with anything others write – after all that’s why you wrote it – it’s your opinion. But that does’t make your thoughts or mine right.
Au contraire, as a Philosophy graduate I’m *very* open to having my mind changed.
Why is it happening in England and not elsewhere? Devolution, in part, but also a lack of identity. Just what does it mean to be English (as opposed to Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish)? Not much, it would seem.
Oh come off it.These are kids with blackberries looting JD Sports. This is not a political uprising, a rebellion against poverty or a reaction to the fact that a middle class education is about to be a lot more expensive. These are young criminals committing crimes against the poor. Save your sympathy for the victims.
@oldandrewuk I think you need watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmo8DG1gno4And, as I’ve said several times now, ‘sympathy’ is not a zero-sum game. There’s enough to go around.
And then you listen to this:http://audioboo.fm/boos/435528-salford-man-tells-real-radio-s-sarah-rogers-th…This is just a game to some, it’s ‘a laugh’, they don’t actually know why they are doing it and in fact I think you’re overrating their intelligence. Yesterday I would have agreed wholeheartedly, however, after experiencing some of the action last night first hand (which I’m sure you and the majority of others on this page haven’t) I can’t but disagree.
Indeed, Dave, but have you *lived* amongst and gone to school with people experiencing similar frustration and social injustice?There’s always going to be people in it for a ‘laugh’ and, furthermore, even if people don’t know *why* they’re angry that doesn’t make their anger any less justified (or their social exclusion any less real)
I’m sorry but that clip of a much older bloke with a political agenda is simply not representative of what is going on. They are looting not protesting.By the way, you should probably listen to this before taking The Spirit Level as gospel:http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00v6lkp
I don’t think any of us actually *know* what the causes of these riots are. There is clearly a problem in our society that these people feel that they want to fight against “the system” for whatever reason. I’m sure if you pick some of them they will say it’s because of x or y or z, and there will be others (who won’t admit it) who are doing it just because they feel they can.We can get into a very heated debate on here about who’s right and who’s wrong, and we won’t ever know who’s right. All we can know is that there are two problems – 1. that some people are angry enough that they feel the need to vent their frustrations through violence for whatever reason, 2. that violence is occurring. Both need sorting but in different ways and with different timescales.I had an interesting chat with an Italian tourist in Bath yesterday, who claimed that the Italian press had been reporting the rioting as being caused by 2nd and 3rd generation Muslim. I pointed out that there may well have been some of said people involved, but the fact that they were Muslim or 2nd/3rd generation immigrants was irrelevant.
This has been a problem that has been brewing for a long time, there has been a systemic divide in society that thrives through a multitude of channels, whilst I cannot condone violence or rioting I can also understand how anger has built and spilt into chaos which then becomes opportunist. Reason does not have to excuse behaviour, but all conflict can only be mediated through listening to all sides of the argument, We are currently marginalising the argument to a simple media narrative and simple linguistic sound bites. I too was a disaffected youth in my time, similarly I too was a teen in the early nineties recession, constantly having a message reinforced of no hope and no future. (I have extensive blog post on this here: http://digitaladventures-colmmu.blogspot.com/2010/10/benefit-to-society.html) I know how easy it could and can be to become carried away with a chaotic or hysterical situation such as rioting, this does not excuse though.When we dismiss this issue in simplistic terms, we merely further push away the problem rather than address it, it goes underground to flair up every now and then like an underlying disease with repeat symptoms. We have to actually engage more in understanding our society, debate it more, involve it more. My reaction to the riots is I need to do more for youth programmes, volunteer to work on programmes relevant to my field of expertise, do better at evolving inspirational work experience. Because if I and others don’t, it will only get worse…
thx for this write-up…very well put…related discussion can be found here:https://plus.google.com/u/0/105664854995907257058/posts/8WgVJuYXnbw
“These are young criminals committing crimes against the poor.”Kinda reminds me of ‘A Clockwork Orange’. Now THERE is an example of some really bad ass kids – plenty rich enough to buy their kicks, and just downright nasty social creatures. It has to make you stop and wonder – what kind of a society breeds young people that are so angry and full of spite (if you really believe that’s what they are i.e. not just ‘troubled youth’)? I’m not just sitting on my international perch here – I’ve seen riots in Redfern, Macquarie Fields and Cronulla (in Australia) over the past 7 years, and those stories are the same. The kids look like they’re having FUN. They don’t look angry or troubled AT ALL. But…they are. Angry, troubled, ignored, and BORED. You might think that makes them spoiled, but stop and think for a minute how bad that combination of feelings would actually be. And you have no reason to think you can escape it, not even if you do go to university, or have a BlackBerry of your own.I also find it interesting to watch the jump in logic that people make around the sneakers/BlackBerry issue. As in: “Those kids have no right to be really unhappy and violent because they clearly aren’t living in abject poverty”. Um…what? Would people prefer some scene from Oliver or something?Poor London.